Dixie Gillaspie goes straight to the heart of the controversy around whether #YesAllWomen and #NotAllMen belong in the same conversation.
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Who would have guessed, back in high school typing class, that the lowly numbers sign would ever come to indicate anything more controversial than “We’re #1!”
But since twitter users morphed it into the theme tracking hashtag, it’s kept us connected to things that matter, and things worth arguing about.
Most recently, it’s kept us connected to the conversation around male entitlement and how all women have experienced the fear of saying “no.”
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It’s clear that yes, if not all women, then an overwhelming majority of them, have been subjected to threatening behavior because they had the audacity to “just say no.”
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#YesAllWomen started after a 22 year old man decided “if you can’t date ‘em, kill ‘em” was going to be his new motto.
His killing spree left seven dead, including himself, and opened a Pandora’s Box of stories from women around the world. Stories previously told, but ignored as “just the way it is.” Stories never told, because of fear, not only of retribution, but fear that no one would really care.
It’s clear that yes, if not all women, then an overwhelming majority of them, have been subjected to threatening behavior because they had the audacity to “just say no.”
In the wake of these stories, and the resulting generalizations about why men feel entitled to everything from a women’s attention and affection, to their sexual favors, men, and many women as well, felt the need to defend themselves, and the good men in their lives and in the world.
And so the hashtag #NotAllMen was coined to remind us that there were exceptions, that the generalizations and accusations being bandied about did not apply to all men.
For as many people as agreed with this differentiation, there were those who argued that #NotAllMen has no place in this conversation. That men are, as usual, just trying to make it all about them, when this conversation is supposed to be about women.
But how can a problem that involves both men and women be about only men or women?
How can it be solved without both men and women working toward the solution and benefiting from the ensuing change?
The problem with #NotAllMen is not that it makes the conversation male-centric. It’s that it puts the focus on the wrong part of the conversation.
Of course not all men. Not all men were raised to believe that anything they are or anything they do entitles them to any sort of treatment from any woman.
Not all men have been unable to overcome that suggestion from their elders and their peers.
Certainly not all men take action, any kind of action, let alone deadly action, on their belief that they deserve something that they aren’t getting from women.
But I don’t think anyone can argue that male entitlement is not the cultural norm.
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Our cultural bylaws are reflected in our entertainment choices. Books, movies, TV series and reality shows all send similar messages.
They’re reflected in the news media. They’re reflected in the gossip in the lunchroom at school and at work, and they show up on social sites like Facebook and twitter and in the pictures portrayed on Instagram.
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How can we expect that cultural outcomes will change, if cultural norms do not?
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“This,” they say, “is how the world works. This is what you should expect. This is the time-honored role of men, and of women.”
If you aren’t watching for the messages you’ll probably miss them.
But the stories we’re told are built on a framework created long before a #YesAllWomen conversation could have even been considered. These plots are only modern in the way that West Side Story was modern – a retelling of an old, old tale with a few details changed. I’m sure Shakespeare would have recognized his Romeo and Juliet in the characters of Tony and Maria.
How can we expect that cultural outcomes will change, if cultural norms do not?
Which is exactly why #NotAllMen is wrong. Not because it’s untrue. But because it’s irrelevant.
It speaks to the wrong problem, answers the wrong question.
It’s a rebuttal to the generalizations tossed about to explain the misogyny that led to Eliot Rodger’s attitude and choices.
It says that some men have seen through the cultural programming, that some men have embraced a world where women are not required to trade their attention for a few empty compliments, or sex for dinner and a glass of wine.
It says that some men see women as more than property to be won or taken by force. That some men value character and heart over beauty and sexual availability.
Yes. True. And that was my first reaction to the generalizations as well, “Not all men are like that! Fewer now than ever before.”
I still believe that. I’ve always have a lot of male friends, and I’ve worked in industries where my peers and clients were nearly all male. And I can see minds opening and beliefs shifting.
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But the question is not whether all men feel entitled. Or whether all men act on that entitlement.
The question is #WhyAnyMen believe in male entitlement.
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What can we, as thinkers, as writers, as voices in the world, what can we do for #YesAllMen so that #YesAllWomen becomes a lie?
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The question is, what can we do to change our world into a place that, #YesAllMen value and respect women.
Those are the questions we’re trying to answer at The Good Men Project.
You only see what we write, I wish you could hear what we talk about. Because in the conference calls with editors, the conference calls with contributors, and the threads on our private Facebook group for writers, the conversation is centered squarely on this question; “What can we, as thinkers, as writers, as voices in the world, what can we do for #YesAllMen so that #YesAllWomen becomes a lie?”
Because, the cultural norm of the alpha male, the superior male, the entitled male – that culture is no more allows men the freedom to fully express themselves and embrace their lives than it allows women to do the same.
Photo:Flickr/55Laney69
At the center of this brouhaha, there is presumably a problem that needs to be addressed. Who does the problem deal with? Was it a problem with the male shooter, or the female victims? Clearly this is not the fault of the victims. So isn’t this a MALE problem? Shouldn’t this indeed be focused on MEN? Isn’t the first step in solving a problem to identify and understand it? Shouldn’t we be talking about what caused this tragedy? Shouldn’t we be talking about the huge problem of soaring male suicide rates, about male mental and emotional health issues, about the… Read more »
“The question is, what can we do to change our world into a place that, #YesAllMen value and respect women.”
Maybe, perhaps, try and turn some attention away from the men who don’t value and respect women, and turn it onto some of the men who do?
You say that the #NotAllMen are irrelevant, but don’t you see in reality it’s those men who really ARE relevant, and who should be encouraged.
I don’t know? Just a thought. But I’m probably labelled as entitled just for thinking it?
Dixie, you gave a good accounting of why you felt it’s redundant to address an untrue stereotype; among other points you mentioned: “Men are not only relevant, their voice is essential. BUT not as a defense, because finger pointing at ALL men is too ridiculous to deserve defending… If I wrote an article about how it’s WRONG to address the situation by blaming all men for anything, and how that makes it WRONG to have to defend that accusation with something as blatantly true as “but we aren’t ALL bad” no one would read it. I wouldn’t wake anyone up. So please understand… Read more »
I agree that responding to every generalization with “Not all men…” is not helpful. But, I have run into numerous women calling out ALL men as violent oppressors and that ALL men deserve whatever they get because nothing bad can really happen to men because of male privilege. I’m not making this stuff up. I’m a big guy, and I’ve been told that at first appearance, I can be intimidating. I am very much though the gentle giant. I curl inwards in a crowd because I’m petrified of bumping into someone and hurting them by accident. I have been raised… Read more »
@Matthew – I’m so sorry. Really. I know a lot of gentle giants and oversized teddy bears. And I hate it that we assume that the bigger bear the more likely they are to bite. I shouldn’t really say that THIS stereotype is hurtful when what I mean is ALL stereotypes are hurtful. I can’t tell you how thrilled I am with the work you plan to do this summer or how much I support it and the beautiful way you framed it here. If you want to reach out to me privately and let me know how it’s shaping… Read more »
More and more I am coming across other men who are afraid of scaring women to the point of extreme shyness and anxiety. You can count me as another. I don’t know about you but I think what bothers me most about the whole being presumed to be a threat is this. I can talk about how its bothersome to presume me a threat because I’m black. I can talk about how its bothersome to presume me a threat because I’m large. But the moment I talk about how its bothersome to be presumed to be a threat because I’m… Read more »
P.S I don’t mention me helping women as a way to get cookies, I do it because it’s my natural instinct to help people when I can, to me it’s the base-level of what a human should be. The only reward I need is people being safer n happy, seeing smiles n happiness are all the reward I need but even then I do it without expecting that either.
Great piece Dixie, I really enjoyed it – and sorry to be that person that niggles on details – but just a minor correction.
The #NotAllMen hashtag and ‘movement’, if you will, far predates the recent tragedy and has been haunting online conversations with any tone of feminism, for quite some time.
It wasn’t developed in response to #YesAllWomen – rather, the other way around. For example, and rather coincidentally, Jezebel ran an item having a laugh at the best #NotAllMen memes back on 8 May, so it was obviously well established by then.
Thank you for letting me know that. I’m finding it disturbing that so many people equate my statement (which I’ll stick to, thank you 🙂 ) that #NotAllMen is irrelevant to saying that MEN are irrelevant in this conversation. Now I will expand to that ANY conversation. Men are not only relevant, their voice is essential. BUT not as a defense, because finger pointing at ALL men is too ridiculous to deserve defending. I want to hear from all men on how we can ALL change the cultural norms so that we aren’t encouraging ANY men to create the problem… Read more »
I am pretty adament in calling out bigotry and generalizations, I’ve had some do the #notallmen shit to me which I promptly ignored because it’s ridiculous at the core to get upset that people dare call out negative generalizations. Thing is I don’t find the #Yesallwomen to accuse all men, even though not all women are victims of violence so really it should be yesmostwomen maybe. What riles me up though is the generalzations used when talking about women’s experiences. There’s nothing wrong with describing the harms women face, hell if anyone reads my stuff they will know I regularly… Read more »
@ Dixie OK, I think I understand your position a little better. There are two separate conversations going on. One is #yesallwomen, which nobody seems to have a problem with and notallmen, which people seems to believe is either unnecessary or counter productive. I’ve not gotten any reasons why people thinks it’s counter productive. The argument seems to be that it diminishes the experience of women (because that should supersede the experience of men) not that it doesn’t accomplish it’s goal, fighting the stereotype that ALL men are violent. In order for it to be irrelevant, you’d have to be… Read more »
John – It IS hurtful. You and I are, I believe, in close to complete agreement. But if I wrote an article about how it’s WRONG to address the situation by blaming all men for anything, and how that makes it WRONG to have to defend that accusation with something as blatantly true as “but we aren’t ALL bad” no one would read it. I wouldn’t wake anyone up. So please understand that I am NOT making a point that the stereotype is harmful, or that not all men isn’t true. I’m making the point that since the stereotype is… Read more »
oops – won’t let me edit – should be “NOT making a point that the stereotype is NOT harmful.”
@ Dixie
“I’m making the point that since the stereotype is CLEARLY untrue then the defense is irrelevant because it only addresses the stereotype.”
I appreciate your response. The problem I have is that even though the stereotype is clearly untrue (we agree), that doesn’t make it any less believed. That’s the reason why there needs to be push back.
I’m open to alternative forms of push back. Maybe #yesallmen and #allmenareawesomec would work in tandem, but I don’t see that working if male goodness is seen as normal person behavior while male violence is seen as normal male behavior.
Perhaps the belief is as subtle as the conditioning that creates the problem? For instance, I’m not afraid of men in general. I was raped at age 8, have been beaten and taunted by men, but I’ve always recognized those as exceptions and had compassion for the pain that drove the behavior. AND I’ve recognized that women have their own pain, and their own forms of abusing others. Yet, I know when walking alone in the city (I live in an urban area of St. Louis) I am more alert when the person walking near me is male. Not because… Read more »
Some interesting comments here; in regards to:”I also find it disturbing that people seem to equate YesAllWomen with an accusation against ALL men. I have read a lot of generalizations which are clearly agenda driven. BUT the idea that most, if not all women, have felt threatened when rejecting a man’s overtures, or felt too frightened to reject them, does not implicate ALL men, it just says that every women encounters some man at some time that doesn’t believe that no is supposed to mean no.” The issue is think stems from this: If a person can cite their own… Read more »
It’s pretty disgusting just how much some people are trying to defend their usage of generalizations, know what other group I see try to defend their generalizations? Racists. It’s interesting to talk about entitlement when many articles on #notallmen hold so much entitlement with expecting to be able to generalize against men without ever being called out for it. DO you even understand what happens when we allow generalizations against men? We end up with things like the pedophilia hysteria, we end up with many young women raised to believe most men are violent, we end up with stereotypes that… Read more »
Dear GMP, getting the spam-message here while trying to comment- please check the moderation queue.
– trying to repost it here – please omit this if it comes through twice. To better understand entitlement, and, if you wish, to break it down by gender as ‘male entitlement’; to better understand that (and in particular, in the case of Rodger) means also understanding and accounting for the role of class, race, racial perceptions, nationality, wealth, access to avenues of types of power & gratification, and restriction (or perceived restriction) from access to other avenues, as they all interact with this entitlement. Even in the (relatively) more limited scope of first-world western economies and democracies, entitlement… Read more »
I see your point, but yet all generalization fails so #yesallmen are wrong, not matter how you push it.. How about instead of wasting time with nonsence we focus on the important things? because frankly this gives me the feelings of someone chasing ghosts. You want to end entitlement? good so focus on entitlement rather than throwing energy away with failed slogans. Teach men and WOMEN how not to generalize, teach men and WOMEN how o respect each other, not to dismiss each other and help each other. Women cannot expect men to help and listen to women, when women… Read more »
Quite frankly all it’s doing is trying to justify bigotry. They really want men to not call out sexism on female-orientated articles, all it seems to amount to is an entitlement to say whatever they want without people “derailing” bigotry. I’ve lost so much respect for many asking for support from men in the last 2 weeks due partly to this. If you want respect, first you have to give it. Articles that are sexist will not get anywhere near the amount of support that articles that do NOT have sexism will get, it’s simple logic really. Don’t insult the… Read more »
@ Archy “Quite frankly all it’s doing is trying to justify bigotry. They really want men to not call out sexism on female-orientated articles, all it seems to amount to is an entitlement to say whatever they want without people “derailing” bigotry I hate to say it, but for some I think it’s more than that. You ever have that friend who tries to get you to do something stupid? You won’t do it so they say that you both will do it then says you go first. Your friend never actually does it and never had an intention to.… Read more »
“People fight the “derailing” comments because they have no intention of demanding that women respect men.”
The entitlement I’ve seen by some of these people is utterly sickening.
“One thing I noticed about all these “white knights” that have taken these positions. They have either admitted to not having been abused by women or have not mentioned abuse by women. The problem doesn’t exist for them so it’s not a problem. They’ll apologize for not listening to women and turn a deaf ear to men.”
I didn’t realize that but it’s so true.
“One thing I noticed about all these “white knights” that have taken these positions. They have either admitted to not having been abused by women or have not mentioned abuse by women. The problem doesn’t exist for them so it’s not a problem. They’ll apologize for not listening to women and turn a deaf ear to men.” Warranted being repeated
First thing to decide is the goal. Is the goal really trying to change cultural norms or is it really trying to score political points for an ideology. If it’s to change societal norms, is it working? If it’s not, are you willing to change the messaging / presentation even if it meant not scoring political points? You see hundreds of “derailing” comments. This represents resistance to your message. many people are telling you precisely why they are rejecting your message. It’s your choice whether to listen or just complain. Women are not gumball machines that you drop kindness into… Read more »
” Shaming isn’t working. Maybe some positive reinforcement, but then you would have a harder time blaming men so decide on your goal”
People (men and women) who are to eager in pointing fingers are part of the problem, not of the solution. They should be pushed aside, this topic is to important to allow bullies to dominate it with their pointless chatting.
Another Lunatic (Male) has acted upon his twisted thoughts. As wellokthen has stated, he also stabbed to death 3 males (not that you would know that by any mnm articles!) As a father of 3 daughters (and 1 son) this cuts straight to the heart, but now we have #all men must pay, or #all men suck, how about #MOST men wouldn’t do anything remotely like this!
This was a great article, and I do think that there are a lot of good points. It’s unquestionable that people are getting lost in defending themselves and ignoring the real issue. But I do have one concern; when IS the right time to address these other concerns? Women’s rights are absolutely important, often times it seems that the conversation does come at men’s expense. I’ve been saddened and shocked any time I read about men’s rights and find women arguing that men deserve the crap they get, as if we have to pay for the actions of our predecessors.… Read more »
You bring up some great points – but I think now IS the time, but this is the wrong angle. So much of progress in any issue is in the collective perspective. And the perspective that we need to defend MEN, when the truth is that we need to INCLUDE them, is (I think) destructive to the end goal. What we want is for men and women BOTH to live free, fulfilled lives. (that’s an oversimplification, and my own desire so maybe I shouldn’t project. But I think it’s fair to say that we want EQUAL freedom and fulfillment for… Read more »
Dixie, I am so glad you wrote an article specifically addressing the “not all people are like that!” trope and why this is problematic to developing in the way we process discussion. It’s troubled me for a long time but I could never put it into words well enough to write an article it. I see people (and myself included in that) get so caught up in “but I’m not like that/not all women are like that”, that we don’t even get past that to get to the real issue. We are so busy with our own fear and defensiveness… Read more »
Here’s the thing – to say “not all women” or “not all men” implies that so long as it isn’t universal it isn’t a problem worth addressing. Which is a load of doggy do-do. It isn’t about the SCALE or which gender is the victim. It’s that it is WRONG. And wrongs are there to be righted. And they won’t be righted by segregation and finger pointing. NONE of those seven people needed to die, INCLUDING the shooter. His experiences do NOT in any way excuse his behavior, be we have to ask how HIS life might have been different… Read more »
Some of the “not all men are like that”crowd are not very distinguishable from the shooter himself, and misogyny clearly had a role to play in the shooting. However, what is too easily lost, and what the ‘not all men’ vs. ‘all women’ argument completely misses, is that THREE OF THE DEAD WERE MEN. Sorry for the yelling. I was hoping to catch the attention of anyone casually scrolling through these comments. Advanced warning, I’m going to shout again: HE ALSO KILLED THREE MEN. The shooter hated women. That doesn’t cover the whole explanation, though. He stabbed three men to… Read more »
I disagree. The men who died have not been dismissed. Indeed, at least where I live, I have heard more about the men who died in Rodgers’ apartment than I have about the female victims. As odd as it may sound, #YesAllWomen isn’t about the victims that were killed in this horror; it’s about the mentality that set the events in motion. Of course those men deserved to live. Of course those women deserved to live. Those people deserved not to be murdered for any reason, least of all the ones involved in this case.
I think by saying that a mentality is what set this tragic event In motion is a great understatement. He hated women, there’s no denying it. He also hated men. He viewed them as obstacles, and nothing more. He even posted that he would like to kill all other men and kill all of the women he thought were unattractive. He was a narcissist and a sociopath. I think that some people are taking this tragedy and making it about gender issues, while what I believe to be the real issue at hand, mental health is being ignored.
Thank you wello.., I have often thought this myself– four men were also killed, three of them were stabbed. Of course, the killer was motivated more by his attitude toward women, but let’s not forget the entire picture when we talk about misogyny and gun control
Seven people are dead. In part because of the beliefs instilled in one young person about gender roles and expectations. NOTICE I say “gender roles” because his beliefs were just as much about the role of the alpha male (superior not only over women, but also other men) as they were about the role of women in relation to men. And I personally don’t care what GENDER of people are dead – they didn’t need to die. None of us can speak to all the aspects of an issue in one article. If I said everything I have to say… Read more »
I totally agree that all of the people murdered matter, but I don’t think the men have been overlooked and I don’t think that the murder of those men was unrelated to his misogyny. Reading his manifesto and listening to his plans, he intended to retaliate against the men who were more successful sexually, hated men who he deemed “obnoxious brutes” but who had girlfriends, and generally felt that he was more deserving of sex and attention than most men. He was also racist, and loathed the thought of any minorities sleeping with white women. His willingness to kill men… Read more »
Thanks Dixie.
Our conversations at GMP have certainly been enlightening for me personally.
It’s a shame these conversations get derailed so quickly in the public sphere, there really are a lot of good men and women out there.
Thank YOU Luke. There is a lot for us to learn and speak to in the derailment too. It tells us where the pockets of hate and resistance are centered, as well as what agendas are prevailing around any topic. And that is worthwhile even as it’s frustrating.